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Is Westminster Sovereign????
July 7, 2016

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 7, 2016

The only problem there Bob is that if the House of Lords get involved it will take them several days to wake up, another several days to check their diaries (IF they can remember where they put them in the first place), then they will have to be reminded what they were doing before they started looking for their diaries. THEN they have to make sure they have taken all their pills for their medical ailments, and by this time they will have been asleep for many days. God help us if we try to get any sense from the Lords, they will be too busy looking for their way out so they can go home. But then, they will have to ask the friendly policeman where they (the Lord in question) lives, and what transport is available. By this time, another 20 years have passed, so back to square one AGAIN. Waste of space the lot of them. What was the problem anyway???? Even I have forgotten...

July 7, 2016

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 684
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 7, 2016

The reason Westminster cannot simply declare we are out of the EU is because it was Westminster, the Government of the day, that signed the articles of state that contracted us to be a member of the EU and agreed we would abide by its rules. There was indeed a vote for us to join the EU but following that vote we signed a legally binding international accord to behave in accordance with the terms of membership we agreed to on joining. Now; a much more pertinent point and one that has already been muted is the idea of what happens if Parliament voted AGAINST invoking Article 50, highly unlikely but absolutely possible. That said;  I have no doubts whatsoever that Theresa May will become the next PM and we will effect an orderly and disciplined withdrawal from the decaying cabal that calls itself the EU. We need to keep sight of the fact we will want to do business with them in the future as they will with us. We need to speak and act from a position of strength not rushing in with plans drawn up on the back of a fag packet. This is a time for reasoned planning and negotiation rather than emotive argument. Just my personal opinion!

July 7, 2016

Joined: May 5, 2014
Posts: 556
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 7, 2016

David, I was just about to say all that !! I wasn't really, but am glad you did ! The other point I would make is that everyone should, and must, totally accept that "Leave is Leave"- the democratic will of the people has decreed the result, and all must now get on to make it work. There must be none of the "Oh, he/she was a Remainer (or Leaver) " nonsense, the decision has been made, and whether a Lord or MP, all must now work as one to focus all efforts at obtaining the best possible exit for the UK, whilst retaining friendly relations with Europe. Theresa May is, IMO, our best choice to achieve all that - what about Andrea Leadsom as Chancellor ? She has the financial background, Ministerial experience, and George Osborne's ludicrous doom 'n' gloom statements prior to the vote, has rendered him untrustworthy AND, (IMO again), past his sell-by-date anyway. John (JKW)  

July 7, 2016

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 684
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 7, 2016

John I concur entirely apropos the need for all to accept the outcome of the referendum and move forward in a united and cohesive way. People can't have it both ways, they accepted a democratically induced chance to vote stay or leave, the majority of the UK voted  leave, those who voted stay can't now cry foul anymore than the Brexit cohort could have done had it gone the other way. I also agree that TM is our best chance of achieving a satisfactory outcome to our declaration of Article 50. Leadsom has too little experience of high office in my opinion to become PM but I am sure her financial acumen and knowledge of the City trading and money markets will be rewarded with a suitable cabinet post after TM assumes the mantle of power. Osborne is yesterday's man he has to go, we need positive thinking ministers,  positive and proactive people capable of seeing beyond the downsides of Brexit, people who can take advantage of the many upsides of us regaining our sovreignty and freedom to self govern.

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 8, 2014
Posts: 1204
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

Reading the posts in reply to my original question,eloquent thoughtful and knowledgeable, here's a thought ,yes the UK has signed a treaty infact numerous treaties,and we agree Westminster is Sovereign so within living history a Prime minister of the U.K. flew home to great applause that he'd got "peace in our time" waving a piece of paper to the worlds press . Now we know that within 12months we were at war with the signee of that piece of paper ,so why can't we just pass an act of Parliament and tell the Brussels higher arky to piss off ,but not go to war ??????? Sometimes being the Devils advocate makes sense,we know that the industries of Germany,France,Spain,Italy etc need to have good relations with the UK's 65 million buyers to purchase their goods and if they imposed silly retrograde tariffs they will lose out to Korea,Japan,USA,Canada,Australia on and on its a big world outside of Europe. Now I wait for the EU Brussels higher arky to shoot themselves in the foot or will common sense prevail ???????

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 684
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

Bob; in theory we could do what you suggest, in practice it would be more harmful to us than anyone else.Your analogy apropos Chamberlain's "peace in our time" and the subsequent war we entered into is slightly off the mark because WE declared war on Germany I seem to recall. Yes; they pushed us into doing so but we were the declarers of war in that instance. Not only that, the circumstances are wholly different in this matter. If we renege on the EU treaty we signed what is to stop other countries tearing up the trade agreements we have with them> What is to stop the world viewing us as untrustworthy and a huge risk to do business with. The stock and money markets would go into freefall with sterling right at the bottom, we would be downgraded even further on the international economy ratings and the consequences would be severe.WE need reasoned thinking and action, we need common sense and patience to prevail in order that we exit with a good deal and in a dignified manner that sends out the right message. That message is; we are a sovereign country once more, in control of our own destiny and borders, we are a vibrant trading nation who can be trusted and we are open for business with the global markets. We don't even want to begin to get into tit for tat measures until we are pushed into doing so. Firm, fair and forthright should be our negotiating motto. Just my opinion though!!

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

The EU is a closed shop, and always will be when their ruling group are elected for life, and can not be removed,  so the UK must carry on regardless of these morons, otherwise we will be forever being not listened to. It was a different matter when they needed UK, to battle the warmongers in continental Europe. They seem to forget that fair play works both ways, and not the single way they have set up, which keeps all members in limbo, unable to suggest, never mind ask for, changes to the rigid laws these unelected by the populace heads for life can pass without consultation. This country deserves better than this, we have served our country and friends with all we have , yet we are held "in detention" for asking for changes. Once we DO leave, there will be a host of EU member states wanting to join us in the free world of trade and support. We have stood alone before, and have the courage and ability to do the same again. EU do not deserve our support, so bye bye Euroland (AKA Germanland)  I will never understand why the EU are so non approachable, but there, there....."Orf with their heads, Ma'am"

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 8, 2014
Posts: 1204
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

Yes David I did make a mistake on the start of WW11, yep we did declare war on the Germans only because they were marching into Warsaw to do their shopping with their tanks . I'm not sure that if we kick the agreement we've signed with the EU would be too damaging , why well the NATO meeting going on now has us deploying troops on the Eastern border of the EU as a part our NATO commitment. With Mr Putin flexing his muscles again Europe is again looking to the UK/USA to defend their countries , now to us old soldiers remember what the Soviet Union was all about but Putin has had success in the Ukraine/ Crinmea and like another guy who took Austria/Czechslovacia before we interfeared. Hence the thought of how the irrelevant this agreement we have with the EU for trade if we have to physically stop Putin and co .....But it would nice if the UK's Brexit is /was amicable and we all lived happily ever after as friends. David you know your history do you honestly think everything will go smooth and as planned , European history has never run smooth and 70 odd years without someone being a pain in the arse ,well you do the maths

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 684
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

Bob, the answer to your question apropos do I think everything will go smooth and as planned is an emphatic no. I labour under no delusions, I know it will be a difficult, backstabbing, deceitful and vitriolic process bedevilled with thoughts of revenge at our temerity to leave the EU. Junker hates us, he will stir up all sorts of little known EU mandates to make our journey to freedom harder, he will do so to show others contemplating a similar move that leaving the failing federalist club will have dire consequences. But, for all that I learned late in life (sadly) that   arguing  within the parameters of the rules, sticking to the truth, facing nastiness and vitriol with good humour and reasoned debate and, above all, leaving the emotions aside and sticking to the facts always pays dividends. It would be a mistake to even  contemplate confusing membership of NATO with that of the EU the two issues are not remotely connected. NATO has helped maintain the east/west detente for decades.  Helping to keep  the eastern borders of member states of NATO secure is in our own best interests as it maintains a safety zone between RUssia and us that is far removed from our own coastline. We weren't keeping so many troops in Germany for so long out of misplaced love for the Germans it was to safeguard the eastern borders and hold up any advance towards our own borders. Sure we now know we would likely have been steamrollered within 48 hours but the world is a different place now. Returning to the EU issue, Article 50 needs to be enacted calmly and methodically, we need to ensure we give Junker and his cronies no leeway to cry foul, we need to negotiate hard and fair  and show we are a force to be reckoned with but a force that is underpinned by integrity and fairness. If they don't reciprocate we can always play them at their own game then.

July 8, 2016

Joined: May 8, 2014
Posts: 1204
Is Westminster Sovereign????

July 8, 2016

Yes David I agree now once the country has a new Prime Minister and they get a good negotiation team together and they keep a level head I can't see what the ex PM of Luxembourg can actually do,I have other thoughts on his reterick of leaving his club with our ball ( namely the monies paid into the coffers he controls) so he might even have a pay cut on his highly paid non elected ( by the people) job . We all have to optimistic and remember that we have been in worst positions in our history and have never failed as long as we "Stick together " and get it done for our decendants.


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