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Those Terrible Grey Horses
April 6, 2015

Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 51
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 6, 2015

Having joined two years after the amalgamation I was privileged to be mentored (and bollocked) by the best of the 3DG and GREYS and was every bit as proud of the carbines in my cap badge as the eagle. Iam therefor looking forward to receiving my copy of the new Regimental history of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers & Greys) so much so that I had a look on Amazon at the weekend and found you could 'look inside'.  I fully appreciate that many of the members of this forum might not be too keen given their fear that it will be GREYS orientated, the name of the book and the backdrop of the cover photo do little to dispell this fear I know.  Amazon allow you to see the opening sections of each chapter and the glossary of the book all of which are covering a particular era of our combined history so at first glance it looks as though it will be a balanced account.  I will however have to see all the content to confirm this. Given the foreward is written by one of my former Commanding Officers, Simon Allen a 'son' of the 3DG I would like to think and remain confident that 3DG and 6DG will be given their rightful place in the history of the current Regiment. Lets hope it is a good read and a good momento of all the parent Regiments and of the SCOTS DG as a whole.

April 6, 2015

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 6, 2015

Frankie, Well said and expressive of all that is good in the present Regiment. The 3 founding Regiments have given future recruits a firm basis for trying to emulate the service and dedication our forebears exemplified in the many many years these famous old regiments gave such excellent displays on "how to do it". I must add too that I was proud to march behind the B Squadron serving members at our 70th Nunshigum Dinner and parade that weekend last year. Memories flood back to all of us, and we put a spring in our step again. It did, and always will, reflect the professional way the past and present Regiments have and always will , perform their duties.

April 6, 2015

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 23
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 6, 2015

Okay I left in 1965 so I never had to deal with amalgamation, but if it is  'Welsh' joining a 'Scots' why the title 'Royal Scots Dragoon Guards' there is no mention of the Carbs in the title, I know we get the reply, you have the crossed carbines displayed, big deal, to all intents and purposes it is now a 'Scots' regiment which of the general public would recognise the 'Carbs' a part of the new regiment. I am also aware that we have been through all this before, still rankles though. Charlie

April 6, 2015

Joined: May 5, 2014
Posts: 557
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 6, 2015

Charlie, I know you left BEFORE Amalgamation, but if you look at the full title of the "new" Regiment you will see where you're a bit mistaken ! The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) is that title - a mouthful I know, but it had to be to get all past & present representations in ! As an aside, the official ABBREVIATION of the title is "SCOTS DG", always written in capital letters - not many know that ! John (JKW)  A very proud former member of 3DG and SCOTS DG.

April 7, 2015

Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 685
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 7, 2015

In 1963 I joined JLR RAC. Whilst there I was badged 15/19th Hussars. 1965 I was medically discharged. Same year I joined RAOC TA in Poole. Rejoined regular army  1966 into 10H. Left them in 1968 (I think) to join 3DG in Muenster. Then SCOTS DG on amalgamation. Took redundancy in 1992. Joined Territorial Army Public Information Unit as a TAPIO same year. Left TA 1999. I mention my military history only to portray its diversity. I was a very proud 3DG and I enjoyed my time with them immensely, they were a great regiment with many outstanding soldiers serving in it. When amalgamation loomed it became clear quite quickly that The Greys, as Scotland's only cavalry regiment, would not forgo the "Scots" part of ANY new title the amalgamated regiment would adopt and they had some very powerful big hitters in high places to ensure that happened. I well remember the tales of the often difficult negiotiations that took place as each regiment fought to preserve the essentials of their individual and jealously guarded histories and traditions.  In the immediate aftermath of the amalgamation many people were surprised at how well a Scottish and a Welsh regiment could so quickly cast aside any differences and, without losing sight of former loyalties to their much loved regiments, form a new regiment in which they served with equal pride. As an example, when the reintroduction of the Grey Beret was first formally muted (we were in Osnabrueck at the time I seem to recall) there were mumours of dissent from one or two ex Carbs but generally speaking I recall the vast majority of us voted for it regardless of previous regimental loyalties. I absolutely understand that some ex Carbs might feel the Scots side of the regiment has taken precedence and priority and, truth be told, despite the full title of the Regiment explicitly encompassing the word Carabiniers (as JK rightly points out) and the carbines in the capbadge, there is some truth in that. BUT: we should also not forget that the Regiment's Scottish heritage has undoubtedly saved us from at least one if not two further amalgation threats. The 3DG/Greys amalgamation was a stunning success and has produced what I consider to be the finest Regiment of any army, anywhere. As my presence on this site clearly indicates I was an extremely proud  member of 3DG and counted myself fortunate that Harry Daziel Payne accepted me into the regiment when he did. But; I am equally proud of my service as a SCOTS DG and I am sure the new Regimental history will honour the history of both its former constituent Regiments in equal part. Onwards and upwards!!

April 7, 2015

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 7, 2015

David, It is amazing that 2 Regiments, with totally different recruiting areas as the parent Regiments, Greys and Carabiniers,have created a great, possibly THE greatest,  Regiment in the entire Armoured Corps, perhaps even in the entire British Army. It is a lasting tribute to all, past, present and future generations who join, for their determination and pride in producing the standards they have since amalgamation, and long may the tradition continue. I left 3DG in 1969, for personal reasons, nothing to do with the upcoming amalgamation, and am envious of all those who DID join  RSDG. My best pal in 3DG Ronnie Kimpton was the shortest serving member of RSDG, being capbadged one day then discharged at end of service the next! He taught me a couple of Welsh sentences to reply to some Welsh lads who spoke in Welsh to me when I asked them to do something on the tank park they did not like doing in or under the Cents, and when they heard me say what I had been told by Ron, they spoke English from then on - a bit of banter really, nothing harmful but both sides learnt a lesson!! Tom       Tom  

April 7, 2015

Joined: April 23, 2014
Posts: 141
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 7, 2015

You have turned into a sat nav Tom. Could have used you on Soltau.

April 7, 2015

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 7, 2015

Freddy, my real forte was in the deserts of Libya!! I did not like the Soltau permanent wet weather, could hardly see anything most of the time, but I did manage to hit the nail on the head in Libya when an Occifer (no names no pack drills) thought I knew nothing about sun compasses, so he told me to take a Saracen on a given bearing and find a lonely Libyan grave 200 miles away. Well, not quite that far!  Little did he know that I had already been there some days before on a radio test exercise!! One red face, but a million smiles saying " wrong" to my challenger (Occifer, not battle tank!) We are now on very good terms, we have all mellowed! Could  be knee deep in the brown stuff any time now! Tom Tom  

April 10, 2015

Joined: May 8, 2014
Posts: 1205
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 10, 2015

Fred........Tom would not be able to use a SAT NAV to technical for Recce Troop ,only tin/bottle openers allowed !!!!!

April 10, 2015

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 10, 2015

Bob, OOOOOh, Bitch !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also had a map and compass....... Cheers, Tom

April 10, 2015

Joined: May 14, 2014
Posts: 977
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 10, 2015

Forgot to add, my map case was also a good waterproof when it rained (often) so Map taken out, Tom climbs in map case and stays dry!!  Tom

April 23, 2015

Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 51
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 23, 2015

Received my copy of the book yesterday and I am not disappointed.  It is a quality publication and at first perusal it is well fitting of the history of  our predecessors and us all no matter what our cap badge was and it records fully how well the lads have done during these recent turbulent years. I have pledged my copy to my Grandson already.   Wee Frankie

April 23, 2015

Joined: May 5, 2014
Posts: 557
Those Terrible Grey Horses

April 23, 2015

I received mine too, & must say it's a massive book, and although I've only had chance to flick through each page, I am mightily impressed with the content. The literally hundreds of photographs, most in full colour, are a wonderful record of all 3 Regiments, in fact FOUR, because 3rd Dragoon Guards and 6th Dragoons get well researched separate chapters of their own. The articles relating to each campaign our forebears ever fought in are well chronicled, from the time in India right up to the present day, including NI & the Gulf War - about 300 pages (A4 size) cover our  complete history as a Regiment, and if anyone thinks 3DG are relegated to the back burner, think again ! It really is a superb publication, literally loads of pics & articles of 3DG & the Greys, with of course, further material of SCOTS DG - my only gripe is they never got my mugshot in it !! John (JKW)

February 20, 2016

Joined: February 12, 2016
Posts: 36
Those Terrible Grey Horses

February 20, 2016

I returned to the Scots DG after amalgamation in 1972 . (I had been at the D&M School). I had been promoted at tne same time as Mourice Potter. He kept his acting rank and I was told to revert to my sub rank of Sgt. The CO said that as he did not know me Iwould have to prove myself over one trg season. I was posted to C Sqn. On my interview with the Sqn Leader,that he did not want me in his Squadron and that I would be transferred to a more appropriate Sqn. A Sqn that was mostly ex 3DG. I discovered that the Scots Dg were a more Masonic orientated organisation. On manyoccssions when I brought up the subject, it was always been repudiated in the strongest possible manner. Ask a few of the members of this organisation (If they will tell the TRUTH ). What they have experienced. NOUGH SAID.

February 20, 2016

Joined: February 12, 2016
Posts: 36
Those Terrible Grey Horses

February 20, 2016

I was awarded the MSM. But no mention was made of it in the Regt.Although others have been praised. SOUR GRAPES ,!!!. Or am I just biased. Give it to me baby.

February 21, 2016

Joined: May 5, 2014
Posts: 557
Those Terrible Grey Horses

February 21, 2016

Judd,  I too came back to the Regiment, as a S/NCO, in 1972, from "D" Sqn, the Independent Airportable Sqn based in Edinburgh, where I had joined on Amalgamation from my ERE post as a Recruiting Sgt at Chester. I NEVER experienced any of the bias you say was shown to you, and never thought of any Sqn as being either 3DG or Greys "heavy" - it's the 1st time I've ever known anyone say that. During my service in SCOTS DG I served in every Sqn except "B", a Sqn I always felt "apart" from the others, including when I was a Carabinier in Detmold, although I could never fathom out how / why, but it certainly wasn't because of  any former Regimental bias. With regards the Masonic influence, yes, it existed to a degree, but not to the extent of affecting promotion etc.    I became RSM, and was never a Mason, and am English to the core !! When I joined HM Prison Service, Masonic influence was rife, but again, live & let live I say, none of it bothered me, in fact some of my best pals were Masons, both in the Regiment & HMP. I always felt that those who didn't hide the fact of their "membership" were the one's who never tried to take advantage of it. So, whilst I find it sad that you feel fairly bitter over your service as a SCOTS DG, my own experience is decidedly different, and as a former Carabinier who then served the majority of my 25 years service as a SCOTS DG, I feel experienced & qualified enough to comment on your "Sour Grapes / Bias" theory. Incidentally, congrats on your MSM - you're right, not many knew of that I'm certain. Mo Potter, by the way, passed on to the "Big Tank Park in the Sky" a couple of years ago - he used to be Chairman of the North East Branch of the OCA until his demise - RIP Maurice. Another snippet - the QDG RSM(I) at the D&M School when you were there later, after demob, murdered his German wife & ended up in my "care" at HMP Liverpool, doing life. He obviously didn't like the "care" received & committed suicide some time later. John (JKW)  


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